Posts
Tuesday, January 29, 2008
Is there such a thing as a carnal Christian? Now, according to the Scriptures, everybody is carnal at one time or another, Christian and non-Christian. Carnal just means to be of the flesh, or fleshly. In fact, the word carnal is not used in some newer translations. In the KJV it appears 11 times. The Greek word used is σαρκικος-sar-kee-kas, which means fleshly, carnal, or unregenerate. In fact, even in the definition, it states that a carnal person is unregenerate. There are only two types of people, carnal and spiritual, unbeliever and believer, non-Christian and Christian, unregenerate and regenerate. Carnal, or fleshly life is a part of every person. In fact, it is this flesh nature, the natural man, that is waging war against our Spirit. So being carnal is a temporary part of a Christian's life.
Now there is a new theology that claims that a person can be carnal permanently. This is what most people refer to when they speak about a carnal Christian. Someone who is a believer, but has not elevated Christ as Lord. They have little desire to grow in the knowledge of Christ or to pray without ceasing or to follow the Great commission. They are not utterly grieved over their sins. They believe that they are saved because they believe in Jesus Christ. In summary, this unbiblical doctrine teaches that a person may have assurance of salvation but yet show little or no evidence of a transformed life.
Let's look at the scriptural evidence:
(Rom 7:14 KJV) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(Rom 8:6,7 KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Even when the word fleshly (sar-kee-kas) is used in the NT, it infers that the carnal person is against the law and God. So, then where does this doctrine arise from?
1Corinthians 3 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh(carnal), as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh(carnal) and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human(carnal)? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile." So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future--all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
Few observations we can make from this passage:
1) Paul is talking to believers because he calls them brothers
2) Paul is calling them carnal, and infants in Christ
3) They believe in God
4) God gave the growth(Sanctification)
5) They all build on the foundation of Christ
6) Some buildings were better than others
It seems here that a carnal person is a Christian but just an infant in Christ, and therefore is still saved and if he dies, this person would be just barely saved, but saved indeed.However, we know that the Scripture cannot contradict itself. For if a carnal person is sold to sin, his mind leads to death and enmity against God, it would not make sense for this person to now be able to be saved.
Now, the passage in context is referring to the division that was arising from people following Paul and Apollos. Paul, is correcting them and stating that they cannot put Paul in a pedestal or Apollos in a pedestal in a way that would make them idols. They were all servants of God, and so stewards of the grace of God. He wanted them to mature in their faith and realize that acting like this is to act immature in the faith. These people are indeed not permanently living in a carnal condition, but it was a temporary problem that needed to be dealt with. We know that this idea of carnal Christianity is not the same in that obviously they cared enough about the Scriptures and doctrines that they could distinguish Paul's message from Apollos' message. They were keen in learning. These were not lazy men. In fact, you could argue that these men were following in Paul and Apollos' footsteps in spreading the gospel.
So, what does it mean when it says, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Well, 'the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw' is referring to the doctrines these men teach and not as to their faith. And, these are the things that will be tested. And, he will suffer loss, since he wasted his life without eternal reward, in aspect to his teaching and ministering. However, this does not mean that this person is not saved. This does not mean that this person consistently lives in a fleshly way. It just means that their life labor was in vain. And, in fact, Paul says that this type of person, who because of thinking he is wise in his teaching, would be put to shame. That's the intent of this passage. They were putting certain people on a pedestal and therefore they considered themselves to be wise, according to the world. However, Paul is stating that wisdom comes from God, and it is not Paul's, or Apollos', or Peter's wisdom that they should hold pride in, but God's wisdom.
These men were not permanently carnal. However, they did act carnally in certain situations, until they were rebuked, and then continued their walk as Christians. This passage teaches us that we should not just put one person in a pedestal and agree with everything that person says but to be wise in a godly way, discerning through the Spirit and through the Word, and also other men of God.
Think about these questions:
1) Have you ever put one pastor-teacher in a pedestal in that you agree with him blindly in everything he says?
2) Are you building on a foundation that's been laid already(Christ, Bible, & Church History) or making new ones (Emergent, Liberal Theology)?
3) In what areas of life or doctrine have you been carnal, as infants in Christ? How can you mature in this area?
3 Comments:
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
"This is what most people refer to when they speak about a carnal Christian. Someone who is a believer, but has not elevated Christ as Lord." this is not a christian because as many know romans 10:9 you need to confess with your mouth christ is Lord. but then later in the same paragraph you say "They believe that they are saved because they believe in Jesus Christ." I'm assuming you mean they believe they are saved because they believe what is said in romans 10:9 because otherwise they would have no reason to believe they are saved. Its not a major thing but little things like that lead to bigger scriptural mistakes like this one.
"(Rom 7:14 KJV) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(Rom 8:6,7 KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
alone these quotes are find but the way you tie them them together later is misleading.
"For if a carnal person is sold to sin, his mind leads to death and enmity against God, it would not make sense for this person to now be able to be saved."
these two scriptures are not speaking about the same types of people. Which is made clear if you read the context just a few verses after Romans 7:14 later we see "Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not."
In roman its speaking of a christian who is describing his flesh/carnal nature which by your own omission we know all christian have at least a bit of as long as they live in the world. But your quoted scripture from Romans 8:6,7 is talking about christians and non-christians which is evident by the context starting in Romans 8:5
"
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
We know he's talking to christians and he says but ye are not in the flesh. its clear from the context that verse's 6,7 are making distinctions between christians and non-christians so when you say
"For if a carnal person is sold to sin, his mind leads to death and enmity against God, it would not make sense for this person to now be able to be saved."
the carnal person your referring to is a non-christian not a "carnal Christian" and i would put forth that this original "carnal Christian" at least the 1s person you mentioned is not a christian at all if they have not as you said "elevated Christ as Lord." but the 2nd person you mentioned who believes in the lord christ it is completely possible for them to have so little fruits that it may seem like nothing but they are still a christian. When push comes to shove if someone says they are a christian its up to God to sort out because "Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"
Just to reiterate I believe that your main point is right that this "carnal Christian" doesn't exist, but you need to make sure that your scriptural research agrees with itself which requires care and also that whom you designate as a "carnal Christian" is really such , someone whom hasn't elevated christ as Lord and/or someone whom doesn't believe God raised him from the dead, or you could end up judging some of God's children something other then what they are. But otherwise kudos on sound research.
Regarding your claim that Rom 7:14 and Rom.8:6,7 are talking about two different types of people. The difference is that you would infer that Paul, when he says 'I am of the flesh, sold under sin', he is referring to himself at his current stage of life. However, that may not be the case. In fact, many commentators still debate whether he was talking as himself, a regenerate man, or as an unregenerate, perhaps a Jew. So, arguably it is unclear at best, but I am under the impression that he was talking as himself but as if he were speaking as one who once was under the law and had not yet found the gospel. I believe that in this passage Paul is demonstrating the insufficiency of the law compared to the Gospel. For if he is referring to himself in his current condition, then he would make the law and the gospel insufficient and would therefore lower the standards of being a Christian. Therefore then if we accept this interpretation of the text, it would make both texts be about a Christian and a non-Christian. (As a side note, this is one of the most complex texts in the entire bible, and great theologians write and preach about it. I am no great theologian, I'm not even a good theologian, so I will not be offended if you reject my interpretation. In fact, I may even reject my own interpretation after further laborious study of this text and of Romans. Also, I would like to state that I am completely grieved that by holding this view, I have to reject the views of reputable men of God such as John Calvin and John Piper, who I admire to the greatest extent. However, in my defense is the entire writings of the early church Fathers up 'til Augustine.)
Finally, I am under the belief that that there is no such thing as carnal Christian, since the term is fleshly, and if you are of the flesh then you are not of the Spirit. my grave error was when I said, "It seems here that a carnal person is a Christian...". My intent was not that I believed the text actually stated that, but that one may assume that it states it, such as one who would be promoting the doctrine of carnal Christianity, of which I am not one.
I do believe that i did not make my thought as clear as possible and did omit some statements that would have helped make my argument more cohesive. I was kind of in a hurry to get this blog posted since it was in reply to a question asked. However, that is no excuse for sloppiness in word usage. And, above all, I thank you for critiquing my work, and if I was careless, even in my reply, I ask for your forgiveness. For, I too am a man that speaks from a human heart and mind, waiting to be perfected.